During the second Simply Naked Episode, we talked quite a bit about how we see the future for naturism. About what is going well and what might need to change. Or updated, if you wish. With quite a young panel, the topic of the aging naturist was quickly brought up. Not just the fact that many naturists we meet are often older than ourselves, but also the stigma that has been created by this phenomenon. As Brendan summarized with a sweet Australian accent: “Naturists are seen as a bunch of old blokes sitting around the caravan park naked“.
The follow-up question was spot on: “Why would young people, especially young females, be interested in joining the club and hang out with a bunch of old men?“. This is by far the biggest mistake that many naturist clubs and organizations are making today. They like to believe that the younger generations are just not interested anymore in naturism. That they have become prudes. They blame the internet, social media, and smartphones. But they don’t question themselves.
Diversity is more than the age balance
Dan and Charlotte also talked quite a bit more about this topic on their own The Meandering Naturist blog, in a post that was conveniently called “Old, White, Naked RV Guys”. The RV-part may be more of a North American thing, the rest of this title very well defines the stigma in the whole western world and even Down Under. Immediately pointing out another lack of diversity in the naturist world: naturists are white.
From our travels through Europe and the USA, we can only agree with this. We have met the odd black couple, but they were definitely a minority. Once again, we can easily write this off by saying that black people are just less interested in naturism. That it’s not in their culture to embrace social nudity. And while we’re at it, we can say the same about Hispanics and Asians.
We could go even further, by saying that the average naturist is either Christian or not religious at all, and straight. There you go, for a philosophy that praises itself for being accepting and respectful towards everyone, it seems like we’ve been able to create quite a strong stereotype.
Diversity in naturism around the world
Luckily, our travel experiences reach further than that and we’ve seen that things can be different. One of our preferred examples is Asia, where the local naturist was often around our age and definitely not white (nor did they drive an RV). One specifically memorable moment was one morning at Barefeet Naturist Resort in Bangkok when we shared the breakfast table with Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Christians. All happily naked. For us, that was definitely proof that naturism does go beyond physical and cultural characteristics.
We saw something similar in Latin America, where the local naturist was obviously not white either, but also often dominantly female. Due to the combination of the uprise of feminism and a still-standing macho-culture, it was much more common to find a group of female friends at the nude beach than a group of male friends. Also here, the average age of the naturist tended to be much younger than what we’re used to. If Dan and Charlotte had been living in, let’s say Brazil, they might have written a blog post about the “Young, Latino naked girls”.
Why do those parts of the world have more diversity?
If skin color, gender, or religion are not determining factors for whether or not you might be a naturist, why does the stigma of the old white naked guy still persist in the western world? If there’s one similarity between Latin American and Asian countries, it’s that naturism is still a relatively young movement. Whereas in Europe, North America, and Oceania, naturism has existed for about a century.
Does naturism age with its founders? In the introduction, we mentioned that resort owners and organization boards can be reluctant to question themselves. But we don’t believe that most of them do this on purpose. Naturism has just evolved with them. Back in the sixties, they probably organized naturism for their own young generation. As they grew older, they adjusted their visions and activities. By doing so, they adjusted naturism in general. Along the way, naturism remained dominantly white and male.
A black couple walked into a naturist club
More and more online voices are calling for a big push on the reset button. For kicking out the naturist establishment and starting all over again. But we don’t think that such drastic measures are necessary. All that’s needed is the willingness to change and to see things from a different perspective. Many of you will agree that if a black couple walks into the naturist club, they will be accepted, respected, and treated like everyone else. Because that’s what naturism is all about. But that’s also our own perspective. We don’t know how it feels to be that black couple.
Well, not until recently, when we read the novel “Excuse My Nudeness” by Vongani Nkuna. It’s a short story about a young religious black couple in South Africa who start questioning society’s standards and become naturists. We definitely recommend this novel to everyone, and especially to the old white naked RV guys, because it gives you a glimpse of the other perspective. The interesting thing is that a very similar story could be written about every minority in naturism. By just replacing some words, the story could be about an Asian lesbian couple and still make absolute sense.
How to recreate the balance?
Vongani and his partner actually took the step to enter a white community as black people. But what about all those that don’t want to be the only gay in the club, the only woman in the bar, or the only young person in the retirement home? Birds of a feather flock together, we have seen around the world that resorts with an established young community tend to easily attract more young people and we think that this will be the same for all minorities in naturism. But where do you start?
Sam and Aleah got it absolutely right in Episode 2 of Simply Naked. With their organization Florida Young Naturists, they bring young people to naturist resorts. The twenty-something couple that may have been reluctant to spend the weekend with a bunch of naked old blokes, will be much more interested knowing that there are going to be other young couples and that the activities will be more in line with what their generation enjoys.
Here we see an important role for many small naturist groups and associations. There are already specific groups for black naturists, gay naturists, and female naturists. Once these start working together with resorts and larger organizations, they can create diversity in naturism without anyone ever having to feel like a minority.
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Great article.
I am from a Afro-Caribbean background and my black friends and family would be appalled to know that I was a nudist. I don’t know what the answer is. Some of it is cultural or religious prejudices against naturism. In some cultures children are educated from a young age that being naked is wrong. And there is the misconception that naturism is linked to sex.
The few times I’ve been to a nudist beach in the UK I could count the number of black people I’ve seen naked on one hand.
Naked events such as naked bike rides again seem to be attended by mainly white people.
As you stated there is also the problem with a lack of young people getting into naturism. That needs to be sorted first otherwise naturism will die out.
Keep up the good work promoting naturism.
Hi LondonNudist,
Interesting post, thanks. And it raises the question of acceptance and tolerance of other peoples beliefs and behaviours. I would assume that your black friends and family would not just expect ‘tolerance’ throughout society, work situations and so on but full acceptance and equality, although in a number of cases we see that is still not the norm (i.e. the woeful statistic that in the English Premier League, BAME footballers comprise about 35 – 40% of the players but a tiny proportion of that are coaches, manager and senior staff at the clubs).
So you would expect that they would apply the same logic to your choice of clothes free recreation and find out the facts, learn that it is not weird or sexual which would lead to a reduction in prejudice, initial tolerance and then hopefully acceptance. But that is patently not the case, and I doubt you would even want to start that journey from ‘understanding to tolerance to acceptance’ from them as it would just cause too much aggravation and maybe heartache. Looked at logically though, if they just refused to engage and had their minds set in stone, then there would be some hypocrisy in that stance, would there not?
Hi Dave.
As you said it would cause too much aggravation to reveal to family and friends that I am into naturism.
What wasn’t clear from my post is that my wife and children know that I am a nudist and are accepting of it which is more important.
My wife does join me on clothing optional beaches but doesn’t get naked.
If she could get her confidence to get naked with me in public then I would be happy with that. I do respect her decision either way though as to whether she wants to remove her clothes or not.
The important question is why your wife isn’t interested in social nudity. If she just thinks that it’s not her thing, there’s little to do about it (although these thoughts often have another background too). But if it’s because of society’s rules, religion, body issues, etc, talking to naturist women could really help.
It’s a mixture of body issues and not being her thing. We have a happy medium at the moment in that she accompanies be to clothing optional beaches. If she doesn’t want to get naked in public it’s fine with me.
Hi London Nudist. I have been a naturist since I was out of diapers. Parents brought me up believing that all people are people and respecting everyone is very important. Got many friends of color, ethnic backgrounds, & people with different sexual orientations. As I experience my nude adventures I find everyone interesting. Best receipe for loving yourself & others is not to build walls. Our world at this time (2021) needs a lot trust and calming down. Thats why its always peaceful at any nude event/resort or beach. Peace ✌
I am Asian but not young in body anymore. I believe the reason why you don’t find many Asians, Africans or others previously colonized by western powers, in the nudist communities is, due to the culture of doing what your ex ‘colonial masters’ would approve of. Like preferring the western attire to the native attire to show your peers that you are moving up in society. When naturism becomes widely accepted in the western cultures (read the US) you will find loads of people of other cultures following suit. In fact returning to pre Colonial / pre Victorian acceptance of nudity
I am a practicing naturist living in India
Sadly, I have to agree with the content of this article. Naturism, in Britain at least, seems to be dominated by older white men. When my wife and I joined our local club, 45 years ago, it was mainly young couples and families but now it is almost exclusively old men ( and a few older ladies). Unfortunately, as a 78 year old widower, I am now one of them ! How I long for those early days.
Hi Sydney,
I’m interested to know how you found the time to go, all those years ago! Even if my wife and I and our young son wanted to go to our local club (they would never even consider it) we just don’t have the time what with both of us having to work fairly long hours during the week, clubs and other things happening at weekends connected to our son that take up huge amounts of time (rugby/football in winter, cricket in summer, scouts events and fund raising etc.), seeing family as well – we’d be able to get there about 3 times through the summer and never during winter so it would hardly be worth it!
I guess you just prioritised going to the club above all else and I think back then it was simpler life in some ways – less busy and hectic. Sounds lovely!
I dream of the day when there are no nudists, no naturists, and no “textiles” – when those terms become redundant in a society where nakedness is just another acceptable form of dress code in appropriate circumstances. When that day comes, diversity will take care of itself in our multi-cultural community.
well said Andrew……hope this happens sooner rather than later
Why the angst over diversity, or lack of it? Perhaps naturism is just something that is for “middle-aged white guys” just as other things in life are for other groups. If others want to live naked, fine, but if they don’t why try to push it on them? So often if one mimics the activities of different groups it is condemned as cultural appropriation rather than multicultural assimilation; perhaps naturism is a “white man” thing and others do not want/need to culturally appropriate it.
I enjoy being naked for myself, not for others. If others, of whatever shape, gender, age, colour, creed happen to enjoy it as well then good for them. But if they don’t I have no desire or need to proselytise. There are plenty of pastimes and lifestyles that have faded away because children didn’t want to follow their parents’ ways – why should we be any different?
Again, Peejayess, the point here is that this only seems to be true in the “west”. The stigma against it, outside of white men, is serious enough that there is one person who has had vids *despite the rules saying that what she is doing on those platforms is perfectly fine* banned, and her accounts even frozen, by Youtube, Twitter, Instagram, and just about every one else (while some people doing actual porn have been able to avoid this, oddly), all because she a) promotes toplessness (she runs the site Topless Topics), b) does so while topless, though not always totally nude, c) and/or has had her kid wander in while in the middle of freaking trying to do a live stream. The whole of the internet seems to think sex is totally fine (weirdly), but that promoting the idea that nudity isn’t about sex, and should be public, is “obscene”. And, its part and parcel to the whole f-ing problem in the “west”.
Peejayess, I agree that naturism shouldn’t be forced on anyone or any group, but that isn’t what naturism is about.
What we need is for naturism to be accepted (as Andrew said in an earlier pots, it would be nice not to have the divisions between nudists, naturist and textiles) and for naturists not to be hidden away on on secluded inaccessible beaches or behind the high walls of naturists clubs.
It would be nice if I could discuss my naturism with family and friends, but they wouldn’t understand and would think of me as weird or perverted.
Naturism isn’t forced on anyone, but the prejudices against naturism is forced on society as a whole.
You also make another very valid point here. We’re definitely not trying to force naturism on anyone, but if we want naturism to be more generally accepted, we will need support from everyone.
Honestly kind of wonder if what is needed it something like the L Word. Not just some cheesy reality TV trope show, but something that tackles the subject, even somewhat fictionalized, is generally positive, is shown some place that will not censor the nudity, and where the story is actually compelling, and.. no, I don’t think just, “A day in the life of a naturist, according to old fogies in RVs.”, would cut it. I think, even if written fiction, about the closest to what might possibly work would be a series like Naked Crow, by P.Z. Walker. Though.. how to manage it without, unintentionally, maybe annoying some native Americans… Sadly, willing to bet that some pencil pusher would try to “fix” it by demanding the blond be replaced with an actual Native American, and in a single stroke of the pen, erase the very core of the character – someone that had no idea they had the abilities did, and got them from Crow ancestry, at least in the beginning.
But, yeah, I could see the possibility, if done right, of a kind of naturist Sabrina (though, obviously the old show, not the new creepier one), or heck.. why not a revival of the concept behind Eureka – without having the last two seasons turn into a shark jumping circus, the way it did, and losing all the charm it had in the process.
Basically, introduce it to the “modern” public in a way that they get everything else, and which might change their minds about some of it, instead of trying to do so via, “Oh, those crazies are having another naked bike thing…”
I mean, that works too, but.. the problem needs to be attacked from multiple directions, not just the ones that can be dismissed as, “Those weird people that protest naked, or go to beaches no one else does!”
It’s definitely true that the more we can introduce naturism to a wide public, the more different people might become interested. But that doesn’t take away the barrier to try something of which most others have a different age, gender, skin color…
We don’t agree that naturism might be just something for the “middle-aged white guys”. When we discovered naturism in our mid-twenties, we were most often the youngest at the resorts and missed connection with people our own age. That was one of the reasons why we started this blog. If we had found out that really nobody else our age was interested in naturism, we might have turned our backs on it too. But we noticed that more young people were in the same situation as ourselves.
For the other minorities, we highly recommend reading the book that we mention in this blog post. It will show you the perspective of those who are not much represented in naturism.
hey, if a young couple in their 20s wants to visit some naturist places to meet other young naturists, how to make sure we’d not end up in a place where majority of the people are 40-70+? Recently been to maspalomas beach in Gran Canaria, Spain and we were so disappointed as the only nude people there (with a few exceptions) could easily be our grandfathers and grandmothers
Alex, it seems to me that the problem in the clubs and resorts is that older people are trying to welcome younger folks to join in, but have no idea on how to attract them. If you want to change the age majority in the resorts to young people, then you need to get your own contemporaries together and start going there. Yes, you’ll be outnumbered by the oldies for a while, but it’s you folk who need to make some effort to change the scene. If you wait for the oldies to do it, you’ll be waiting for ever!
We agree with this to a certain extend.
Many club and resort owners don’t have a clue how to attract young people, but often they aren’t really open to change either. Yes, they are willing to give everyone under 30 a discount, but changing karaoke night to DJ night every other week… OH NO!
We’ve met quite some young people who did try to engage and joined a club, but they were hardly listened to. Because “how would they know anything about naturism? We’ve been naturists for half a century”. So yes, they were welcome, but they were also expected to do exactly the same things as the elder people did.
We once asked Stéphane Deschenes, owner of Bare Oaks in Canada, how he managed to attract so many young people while most other Canadian naturist resorts seem more like retirement homes. His reply was simple but genius: “I hire them”. His staff is full of young people, who automatically attract young visitors. But most of all, he listens to them and gives them opportunities to try out new ideas.
So yes, you shouldn’t wait for the oldies to change the scene. But the oldies have to be open to change.
Yes, in many places the age balance isn’t all that…eh… balanced 😊
In fact, one of the reasons why we started Naked Wanderings back in the day was because we were often the youngest ones at a naturist place and we wanted to encourage more people our age to try naturism.
One thing we’ve learned during the last years is that most young people visit naturist places during the holiday season. This is very typical in Europe, in June and September you’ll mostly find older naturists, while in July and August it’s much more common to find younger couples and families.
If you look at resorts, it’s always a good idea to check out which facilities and activities they have. If their number one event of the year is the petanque tournament, you can be sure to find an elder audience. But if their activities sound fresh and modern or if they have many activities/facilities for kids, you’ll often find a younger crowd.
Thanks! Nick& Links, what about the winter season? If we wanted to find some naturist places catered to young people in December, January, what kind of places are the best to go? Let’s say, if we wanted to escape winter to Asia or Latin America
The resorts in Thailand and Bali attract a very mixed public. You can be lucky and find a lot of young people, or unlucky and end up with older people. There’s no golden rule for success.
In Latin America, You’ll often find many young people in Zipolite, Mexico. Other than that, you could get in touch with naturist groups NNG (Guadalajara, Mexico) or Otro Cuento (Medellin, Colombia) which have quite some young members. Also on Praia do Pinho and Tambaba beach in Brazil you can often find many young people.
Well, I read al whole lot of prejudice towards old white men, in that article. That it is somehow our fault we were born light skinned and managed to cling on to this rock for more rides around the sun than others have yet to take. It is not that the old white men are not accepting of younger people of various skin colors, it seems the problem is with the prejudices of the younger people of various skin colors. Most old white men enjoying seeing and being around younger people. As our eyes have aged, and our wisdom grown most of us old white men, have become rather color blind. But I understand that it is now fashionable to blame old white men for everything.
Don’t get us wrong, most of the references towards old white men in this article are nothing but a reference to the stigma. The thing is, we know that you are accepting towards others and many of the elderly naturists we met mentioned that they would love to see more diversity. The thing is, it’s not because we believe that we are accepting, that it’s also being perceived as such.
I found an interesting podcast which discusses minorities and naturism:
https://www.naturistlivingshow.com/2010/05/minorities-in-naturism.html
Asian and black guests feature, discussing their experiences of naturism in public and at home.
Definitely a recommended podcast about this topic
Nick and Lins I find the comment interesting. “If we had found out that really nobody else our age was interested in naturism, we might have turned our backs on it too.” Naturism was appealing, but really only if there were more people of your age group. Hmm, really? I’ve been a naturist for 40 years now. I enjoy it alone or with others. Conversation finds a way if one is open to it.
We believe that it’s very human to be attracted to the same activities that our peers enjoy. But that comment was indeed a bit reductive. It’s not that we would stop being naked at home or have skinny dips on a hot summer day. But we’d probably visit much fewer resorts if we were certain not to find anyone else of our age.
What about nudist in Middle East?
You’re missing the societal contexts, just like all other calls-for-diversity. You’re trying to take an idea and push against millions of years of evolution for morality foundations and thousands of years of socialization and experiences from individual cultures and smash them together to fit what are “first world” diversity desires.
Let’s worry about diversity in more primary arenas like water, food, poverty, war, and slavery in parts of the world and not hyper focus on such a small issue in places that are mostly free and have access to resources.
Of course there are much worse problems than the lack of diversity in naturism. But this is a naturist blog, so that’s what we talk about.
In fact, we have met several nudists from the Middle East. It’s not because you have a strong religion or culture that is against social nudity that you can’t question these norms of society and try something different.
About ten or so years ago my wife & I (then in our 50s) visited Turtle Lake Resort in southern Michigan (USA). On that particular weekend the resort held a two-on-two, coed volleyball tournament. The tent camping area was packed with men and women in their 20s and 30s who came specifically for the tournament. On Saturday night the resort hired a DJ and held a dance party under the stars. It was loud, it was raucous, and it was FUN.
The lesson I took from that weekend is that if a US nudist resort makes an effort to schedule – and properly promote – events and activities that interest young adults, they will come – both men and women. But too often at other US nudist resorts we have visited during the past 20 years, literally nothing is happening save for a bunch of senior citizens standing around in the shallow end of the pool drinking beer or soda. I can’t tell you how often my wife & I have been the only ones actually swimming (or even moving) in the swimming pool.
It seems to me that as their membership has aged many (and I would say too many) US nudist resorts have abandoned nude recreation in favor of nude relaxation. They have become sedentary and downright boring. I’m going out on a limb here and guessing that sedentary and boring are not what most young adults have in mind when they’re deciding what to do on a warm summer weekend. Hell, it’s not what I’m looking for, either — and I’m in my mid 60s.
I’m just sayin’.
RR
You are definitely right. And it’s quite an obvious evolution. As a resort, you try to do the best for your guests/members. When they get older, you adjust your activities to keep them happy. But what the resorts start realizing now is that because they kept adjusting to their current members, they actually failed to attract new ones. And then comes the difficult part. Do they change their tactics with the risk that the members won’t be happy? Or do they just keep things as they are and see the average age at the resort increasing?
A young black naturist in Australia shares his story in the latest GNA (Get Naked Australia) magazine Summer 2021 Edition 5. It’s a good read! You can download it here: https://getnakedaustralia.com.au/gna-magazine/
Back after some while lol. Hope u guys are doing ok.
Anyways, u cannot force diversity, as a matter of fact i find that word to be joining the most overused group of words, aka, freedom,tolerance,love.
Some things are the way they are, it dont mean its someones fault, or theres a reason.
But as mostly ,political narratives are changing things, and so does money of course, and most of it comes out of fake narratives really ,all for the sake of money as i said.
The thing is, it changes the general perception about things as well, and rahter they wanted it that way or not, they influence even those that are unaware of them or even care.
Theres a great page on twitter something like vintage naturism ,it has some fantastic pics, and it has all the so called diversity that you want.
Now, not only there is that, but u can SEE it, cause of the pictures. How come u cant see that today?.. the answer is in my prev paragraph.
You know where im coming from, and would it be a shock to say that back in the days here, not that did it cause i didnt have the balls for it, but u could have rent a porn VHS as 12.. not cause it was “legal” but cause noone cared.
You had porn magazines all over kiosks (dunno if u call it the same, the street stand/house where they sell papers, cigs, drinks,batteries ect) ,and the most hardcore one i might add, for all to see.. no one care about that either, like literally no one,nor any1 made a fuzz. And i can go on with even “worse” if u think this was bad.
The point is, dont blame the old white fat bald men and campgrounds, it was that generation that had way more so called freedom then theres today.
If the narrative wasnt so freaked about nudity, porn, sex in general, there would be more naked ppl , more beaches ,in fact we wouldnt even have to mention naturism, or porn or sex,, cause if it all became mainstream, no one would care about 5% as they say here, and even regenge porn wouldnt exist, and the proof of that is the old times here ,that i mentioned.
The more theres allowed, the less the fuzz will be about it,the more things are “made to be” normal, the less will ppl “suffer” from so called traumas wheres most of them are implemented into ppls heads.
Ya, sounds im kind of all over the place, but in reality im not, you just have to see the wider picture of things and how they effect each other.
I do understand where you’re coming from, Iceman, and totally agree with you! Things that are “normal” don’t get noticed, and people don’t care or bat an eyelid. It’s only things that stand out from the crowd that draw attention and get comments. The more that nudity is accepted and assimilated into society, the less fuss people will make, and things like gender equality will automatically take care of themselves, without any effort from us.
Definitely true, but we live in a very diversified society, so for nudity to become normal we’ll need the support from everyone and not just straight white dudes 🙂
Not quite sure how to reply to that stream of consciousness, but I’ll have a go. It appears you are saying that if ‘porn and sex in general’ were to become ‘mainstream’ then there would be more beaches and places to go naked as people would just be more accepting of it, which would lead onto more diversity in naturism? Did I understand that right?
Well there has never been an easier time in history to access sexual imagery via the internet, if you want to, and I don’t see naturism becoming vastly more accepted in society or massive shifts in diversity. Naturism will always be a very niche lifestyle choice or occasional holiday foray for some folk – it is a wide spectrum with people choosing to be naked for practically the whole time if they can and others just taking their clothes off on a holiday beach, and that’s it.
It’s very much a cultural issue – you don’t see many black folk at a heavy metal band gig for instance, as it’s just not in their culture and peer group norms to get into such music. That’s not being ‘anti diversity’ or anything, it’s just the way it is.
The reason why porn disappeared from the kiosks is indeed not because the world became prude, but because everyone can find free porn these days on the internet. Few people actually enjoyed putting the porn mag on the counter, so now they can skip the humiliation and don’t have to pay…
We believe that the availability of porn online is actually creating more perverse people. Although you could find different types of porn in magazines on every counter, it was always within certain limits. You couldn’t find many extreme things and definitely nothing illegal. On the internet, you can find everything. Voyeur porn became very popular, which actually creates the idea that the nude body is sexual by default and that it’s ok to take candid pictures of naked people. It’s almost becoming a socially accepted fetish.
We believe that naturism is only partially cultural. It’s not a surprise that it came from Germany because the German culture has a history of being relaxed towards nudity. But the British culture definitely has not, and yet there are many naturists in the UK. At the moment, we’re seeing a rise in naturism in Latin America, which has a culture that you wouldn’t immediately link to naturism either.
Welcome back 🙂
Don’t get us wrong, we don’t want to force diversity. We just want to be more open to it. We remember walking into a “black bar” one day. We were pretty much the only whites. Nobody stared at us or made us feel uncomfortable in any way, yet we felt a bit out of tone. And that was just a bar… Imagine a place where you’re supposed to be naked.
We didn’t write this post only because we think that more diversity would be a good thing, but mostly because we receive messages from naturists who aren’t white, straight, or male, explaining how they feel out of tone as well.
Be careful with the diversity that you find in Twitter accounts, some of them paint a completely wrong picture. If you only follow certain accounts, it’s easy to believe that the large majority of naturists are teenage girls. Or that every naturist has sex on the beach.
To elaborate a little more on my earlier reply to Iceman, while I agree with his concept of normalizing nudity as a mainstream dress code leading to more diversity, I am certainly not in favour of normalizing pornography – it has already become far too normal in society and, as you say, Nick & Lins, it’s almost becoming a socially accepted fetish.
To me, pornography is the very antithesis of naturism. Naturism has nothing to do with sex; pornography is all about sex. Naturism promotes body positivity; pornography objectifies the body and sets up unrealistic expectations. Naturism is healthy and wholesome; pornography is demonstrably destructive . . . I could go on!
From my own observations, the only way for the naturist community to (a) increase the general acceptance of nudity in society and (b) increase diversity in gender, race, culture, etc, is to come out of hiding behind the clandestine surrounds of clubs and resorts and start doing things out in the community – parks, forests, beaches, lakes, etc. In some countries, like America for example, there may need to be a prior step in lobbying for a law change first. But it’s great to see organisations like the Calgary Nude Recreation group in Canada making huge progress in this regard.
It’s true that countries with more public spaces that allow nudity generally have a more relaxed attitude towards nudity. One feeds the other. By hiding behind fences, we’re basically sending out the message that we’re doing something the world should not see.
well said Andrew……hope this happens sooner rather than later
Im not sure if every1 can see the comment as a reply , i use the notify me via mail when someone replies here anyway…
Andrew .. ur stepping on ur own words.
Why do u expect ppl to accept nudism or nudies but at the same time u dont want porn to be normalized/accepted?
Its not the connection between the two that benefits the other, its the liberated mind that does, where u dont have any rights to ask for 123 to be cool and fine .whilst u want 456 to be baned or hidden or whatever … and ur asking that from the same ppl ur asking to accept the 123? .. Its immoral to logic to wish to be accepted for something u like, but at the same time u dont wanna accept something else that u dont like.
Porn existed Andrew since how knows when .. its just changed its media form , from carved stones, magazines to internet.
N and L, the twitter thing i mentioned was oldschool pictures from resorts camps whatevers, where ppl actually made nude pics black white 0yo 100yo, well mostly they were white ppl but at the end of the day its the white ppl that “made” nudism anyway so.. anyway that was my point, that u dont see that kind of picutres made/posted today.
And thats why i also kinda connected it with the kiosks, not cause its the same thing as Andrew would say, but cause how come back then it was more open ,more open to the public, to those that dont wanna see it, thats my point.
You say ppl didnt become prude theres tons of porn on internet, yes there is, but thats not the point, the point is that u cant see it on internet unless u spec search for it, aka its not normalized. And a big PS here.. theres a difference between normal and legal.
On those kiosks that u had on every street corner , every1 who was walking by it could have seen those magz, like from a 2yo to a basketball player, since they were stacked from the ground basicly to the roof.. so the point is that every1 was able to see them rather u want it or not, rather u like it or not,to the point where even those that didnt like it, they didnt care anymore ,it became normal.
It became normal cause it was in ppl faces regardless of their preference ,and at the end if u hated it, no1 was forcing u to look at it right? And for the humiliation of getting the mag on kiosk well .. lol there wouldnt have been so much of them if ppl werent buying them.. i had friends from primary school class that were buying them .. so much for the humiliation logic both for the buyer and seller hah , tho u see.. the thing u just wrote about the humiliation was totally from the mindset of 2021 .. and that totally brings my point out. And as for what was in them , well…lets just say u had what u would call ebay amazon ect today, at the end of the magz ,where there were stores and posters ,personal adds, vhs tapes that were for sale with ..well.. there was nothing u couldnt find there lets put it that way…tho thats totally irrelevant for the post.
Oh dear! Where do I start? Ok, I’ll keep this brief.
I don’t understand the logic of what you’re advocating, Iceman. For starters, there is NO connection between nudism and pornography. I can stand on a beach, totally naked, and there is absolutely nothing sexual or remotely pornographic about it. But because of the puritanical traditions of western culture, especially American, many people think there is a connection and cannot separate nudity from sex.
You seem to be saying that I have no right to distinguish between anything that is good and wholesome, and things that are inherently evil. Or that I have no right to advocate and promote an ideal that is shown to benefit society while refusing to accept something that is addictive and destructive. What you are arguing for appears to be complete lawlessness! If I can accept nudity, then should I also accept child pornography? If it’s ok to hire an adult prostitute, then do I have the right to object to child prostitution? If I accept people being employed as servants, then should we bring back slavery? Your logic in saying I must accept both 123 and 456 is totally flawed!
Yes, porn has existed since the dawn of time, in one form or another. But, like many other evils, that doesn’t make it right! The truly liberated mind has the ability to discern between good and evil.
Im not sure Andrew how and who got to decide whit what rights , what is evil or not, what benefits “society” whatever that is, and whats destructive.
One thing is for sure tho, u sure dunno what liberated is.
Sorry, Iceman. Until you figure out the answers to my questions then there’s not much point continuing the discussion and we’ll have to agree to disagree. Good luck with your “liberated” life.
We don’t really understand your logic about why we should also advocate for normalizing porn because we’re advocating for normalizing nudity. Especially, as Andrew mentions because they have certain contradictions. Porn is about sexual nudity, naturism is about non-sexual nudity. Porn is about objectifying the human body, naturism is about the person inside the body instead. And so on.
We’ll give you another example. We are fans of car-free city centers and we’ll support organizations that strive for this. According to your logic, does this mean that we also have to support organizations that strive for cars to be allowed to drive everywhere? Because those people have a right to freedom too? That wouldn’t make any sense at all, and neither would it ever get us anywhere if we have to support everything.
You can’t expect people to fight for things that they don’t support.
Im sorry then, but ur fight is nothing more then selfish hipocrisy then, u cannot expect ppl to support something aka nudism as non nudists, and want them to accept it, with a mindset as such, that will get u nowhere.
I wrote so many msgs here and i dunno how u cannot understand what im saying , u constatnly saying porn is sex nudism isnt ….whlist im not even saying its the same …but nm..
We understood your question as “how can you ask people to normalize naturism and meanwhile ask them not to normalize porn?”
The answer is because it’s obvious as the two are contradictions.
It’s like asking “how can you ask people to support veganism and meanwhile ask them not to support eating meat?”
Or: “how can you ask people to support communism and meanwhile ask them not to support capitalism”…
Imagine that it would be the other way and you would ask promotors of porn to also promote non-sexual nudity. Do you think that Pornhub will put a label on their content saying “THIS VIDEO SHOULD NOT BE WATCHED FOR SEXUAL PURPOSES”?
When you talk about, “diversity”, you mention race of course, but also sexuality and religion, yet you exclude people with disabilities again.
Another black guy posted about how his family and friends would be horrified if they found out he was a naturist.
That’s the crux of the matter. Many black people, in particular from the Caribbean, are rather disgusted by the idea of nudism and think it’s totally weird. It’s a cultural thing, with religious undertones.
Hi, it wasn’t our purpose to exclude people with disabilities. We believe that everyone should be included.
Every community has its cultures, and there are many white people who are disgusted by the idea of nudism too.
I think you’ll find that many black people’s of the world, including the Caribbean, have a history where nudity was the norm and commonplace. It was only the influence of Western culture and Western religions that taught them shame about the naked body.
For example, here is a quote from https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/exploring-the-early-americas/columbus-and-the-taino.html
“When Christopher Columbus arrived on the Bahamian Island of Guanahani (San Salvador) in 1492, he encountered the Taíno people, whom he described in letters as “naked as the day they were born.” The Taíno had complex hierarchical religious, political, and social systems. Skilled farmers and navigators, they wrote music and poetry and created powerfully expressive objects. At the time of Columbus’s exploration, the Taíno were the most numerous indigenous people of the Caribbean and inhabited what are now Cuba, Jamaica, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands. By 1550, the Taíno were close to extinction, many having succumbed to diseases brought by the Spaniards. Taíno influences survived, however, and today appear in the beliefs, religions, language, and music of Caribbean cultures.”
The Taino certainly are not the only ones. Everyday nudity is seen among some African tribal groups such as Massai, Mursi, etc, and it’s not hard to find many more with a google search.
But it’s not hard to see why many black folks have a problem with nudity these days. A few generations ago the white missionaries came with their puritanical teachings that the body must be covered. Now they are being told by white naturists that the body is healthier unclothed. Talk about mixed messages!
I’m an Afro/Caribbean/Canadian. I am like LondonNudist. I am a member at a naturist resort. My wife who is also black has visited the naturist park with me a few times and did get naked but has told me that deep down it’s not her thing. My daughter has been with us a few times as well. She is more into it but I’m sure she would appreciate the presence of more young people.
Reasons why my wife is a somewhat reluctant visitor has mostly, but not exclusively, to do with body image. She loves dressing up, especially in a way that hides her lumpy parts. There’s nothing I can say about her beauty that can alter her impression of her body.
Having said that, I don’t know that there are any strategies that will work to get more black people to naturist clubs like the one I belong to. My first intro to naturism was through a black friend who visited the clothing optional beach (Orient Beach) on a cruise and recommended it to me. I visited that beach with my wife and loved it. As a result I sought out a naturist club closer to home.
I just happen to stubbornly keep going to my mostly white club because I enjoy being naked and swimming naked. What might help me to feel more at home would be the things that generally make me feel more at home in any organization such as black people on the organization’s board or management, advertising which includes pictures of black people (which my club has done to its credit) and a welcoming attitude on the part of the owners, staff and club members.
When I talk to my black friends about naturism it gets mixed reviews. Some are very interested in naturism and are okay with being naked and some are not. None of them actually come with me to the club. They have their reasons which I can’t get into for privacy considerations.
At the end of the day I think black membership in naturist clubs will happen organically as people like myself share our experience by word of mouth. I predict that Black naturist groups will be formed, like the Black Naturist Association I’ve read about in the USA, because our people are deeply suspicious and extremely mistrusting of the intentions of white people toward them which anyone with a knowledge of colonial history and its impacts up to the present day will understand. With the rise of black naturist groups you’ll see an rapid growth in visits of black people to naturist clubs.
That is exactly what we believe. In the end, humans are herd animals and we’re always looking at what our peers are doing. This doesn’t just relate to skin color. When a young couple visits a naturist resort and only finds a bunch of 70-year-olds, they may automatically think that naturism may not be something for their age group.
We’re all just looking for social confirmation. In many aspects of life, but maybe even more in naturism because we’re putting ourselves in a vulnerable situation (literally naked).
So, as you mention, representation is extremely important. We’ve found that resorts/clubs that are represented by younger generations (in publicity, as board members, as staff,…) are more successful in attracting more young people. We believe that this would also be the case for other minorities in naturism.
The main difficulty remains the taboo. There are many more naturists than you would expect, but people just don’t talk about it often. Which makes it for aspiring naturists much more difficult to find peers in naturism. If we would all talk about our naturist club as if it was a tennis club or a job, we would also automatically get much more diversion.
“If we would all talk about our naturist club as if it was a tennis club or a job, we would also automatically get much more diversion.” . . . which brings me back to the point I made back in February – that matters of gender balance and diversity will automatically sort themselves out as nudity becomes normalised in society.
But it’s a matter of what comes first – the chicken or the egg? Does normalisation of nudity first require the approval of members of society? Or can the approval of society only come as normality increases?
I think you are right, Nick&Lins – if naturists could break through their own inhibitions and talk freely with everyone about their lifestyle, then general acceptance would increase, along with diversity.
What makes you think that nudity will ever become ‘normalised’ in society? And what do you mean by that word? That folk at some point will find it ‘normal’ if others walk down the street naked? That’s never going to happen I’m afraid. What I think you mean is that nudity becomes more accepted in places where the context is conducive to being nude, if you so choose. So more beaches with a nude area for instance, or more nude dining evenings at restaurants (there have been some in London over the past few years). Or the general attitude of people being a bit more enlightened (i.e. that being nude does not have to always equate with either being in the shower/bath or with intimate moments). We’ve a long way to go on any of that, but let’s keep chipping away…
Some great points Willow.
It’s great that you can discuss naturism with your friends. Here in the UK there is a stigma about nudity amongst the Black community. I think it’s a religious thing as a lot of people from the Caribbean are Christian and I think Nick and Lins have discussed religion on other blog posts. Only my wife and children know that I am a naturist.
I’m not aware of Black Naturist groups in the UK which doesn’t help either. It is perceived as being a old white person’s pastime over here.
However one of the effects of COVID lockdowns has been that more people have been spending time naked at home for the first time. Hopefully this has included people who are young and from diverse cultures and they are the future of naturism.
We also only know about specific Black naturist communities in the USA. But with the internet, these definitely have a chance to grow internationally.
“I think it’s a religious thing as a lot of people from the Caribbean are Christian and I think Nick and Lins have discussed religion on other blog posts.” . . . A great observation, London Nudist. But the irony is that if Christians were to read the New Testament for themselves instead of blindly following the opinions of their pastors and church traditions, they’d see that nudity is not forbidden at all! In fact, nudity was commonplace in early church baptisms before the influence of the Gnostics and the Puritans.
We prefer to stay away from religious conversations because there’s never really a true right or wrong. For the last 2000 years, many have tried to turn the ancient scripts in their favor in order to gain more money and power. What’s left of the ideas today isn’t anywhere near the origin…
It wasn’t meant to be a religious comment as such, Nick&Lins. I was merely pointing out the irony of how followers of a certain discipline assume it teaches that public nudity is forbidden, when in fact it doesn’t. Both religious texts and secular historical documents verify that fact with as much certainty as any historical records. No opinion as to true right or wrong is required.
“ It’s great that you can discuss naturism with your friends. Here in the UK there is a stigma about nudity amongst the Black community.”
It’s the same here in Canada LondonNudist. Let me correct what I have quoted from you above. I am very careful who I discuss naturism with. Only my closest black friends who I know won’t freak out are aware of my naturist leanings.
I’ve been to a variety of naturist and clothes free/optional places and events over the years, including Cap d’age naturist beach, Studland beach, Spas in the Netherlands and the UK (Clover Spa – wonderful place), Euronat for a glorious week in 2019, Lost Horizon sauna night at the Magic Garden pub in Battersea (it ended up with a crazy late night disco in the pub with about 100 naked revellers dancing on the stage! Really good vibe and totally safe/respectful. Another one was planned for last year but then Covid came….), camping for a few days at Heritage naturist club in Berkshire (absolutely wonderful place – Nick & Lins you should try to get along there!) and also the Bracknell Naturist Sauna Club of which I am a member…..and I think I can count on two hands the number of black folk I have seen in all that time. It may be the perception of people of colour that they will be looked at strangely or shunned etc. but that;s so far from the truth – we had a lovely lady of African heritage at the sauna club who was very happy in her skin and loved the inclusive welcome that she got from everyone, so hopefully when Covid allows the club to reopen, we shall see her again.
I think that ‘perception’ is what stops so many more people from experiencing naturism at the beach, at a club or even maybe at home, with family members. People ‘perceive’ that others will stare at them, that they will feel uncomfortable and that it will just be weird and horrible but then the ‘reality’ is different and they actually enjoy themselves. many others wold if they only gave it a go. Some wouldn’t and would hate it whatever so fine, it’s not for them. I find that ‘perception’ of things, be it naturism or any number of other things in life, often means that people don’t stray from their comfort zone and they miss out as a result. Shame really but that’s human nature.
Hi Dave.
Going slightly off topic.
I want to go to the Clover Spa sometime this year now it’s reopened. They claim to be clothing optional but do they frown on people who don’t get naked? I’d like to take my wife and she is unlikely to get naked and I don’t want her to feel uncomfortable if she doesn’t (provided she agrees to come along that is!).
I have holiday booked to Maspolamas, Gran Canaria later in the year too (if the UK government lets us go).
Studland beach is wonderful.
Hi LondonNudist,
I think they don’t insist on first timers taking everything off, although it would be worth just giving them a call and seeing what they say. Tim and his team there are superb and will accommodate you and your wife as much as possible I’m sure.
It’s good that your wife is considering going with you. I’ve given up trying to gently get my wife to come with me to Clover Spa or a naturist beach!! She is just not interested and that’s that, so I have to respect her wishes. She’ll come with me to a beach for instance but will always wear a bikini which is fine I guess, her choice, but it does kind of defeat the object of the exercise somewhat. So I just end up going to these places on my own now and then which again is just how it is, but the lone single male is certainly not how I’d choose to experience naturism. Such is life – I’m not the only one!!
We know that the owners of Clover Spa are very helpful, so it’s probably best to just give them a call and explain your situation. Then you’ll know for sure and maybe they can tell you when would be a good time to visit.
Perception is indeed a reason for people not to try social nudity. And that’s very natural. When we don’t really know or understand something, we will still try to picture it within our own ideas and norms. This is why people still believe that naturism is something sexual. If you don’t know any kind of social nudity except for a sexual kind, it’s very hard to imagine that there are other possibilities.
That is very true, Nick&Lins. It’s the basic tenet of Epistemology – the study of knowledge acquisition.
One of the major questions that we ask is: where does knowledge come from? Many philosophers have supposed that knowledge comes from reason. Thus, humans have the ability to reason, and, therefore, they have the power to know.
Conversely, other philosophers have contended that humans only become knowledgeable when they experience life situations, such as watching a movie or playing an instrument. These philosophers insist that man can only learn when he experiences life through his own senses.
And so, if a person has never experienced nudity without sexual connotations, they could possibly reason it out for themselves if it occurred for them to do so. Otherwise it will take another person to demonstrate the experience to them, and to encourage them to experience it for themselves.
That’s exactly what we wanted to say, but much better explained 😀
Interesting post, thanks from me too.
The clubs in germany are old, white and conservative.
The clubs have high borders. Not only the camouflages round the terrains, the mistrust and fear other people it are often usual.
The Clubs honor the familys. The DFK is at first a union for family- and amateur sports. The nakedness is a secondary theme.
There was Problems with singles, homosexual and lesbien. In many heads are that still lively.
An other problem is to must not notice the nakedness.
We naturist don´t feel our nakedness and we see only one another in the eyes.
The border between nakedness and sex should build very high.
I have think, that creative dance may be a good idea for naturists, but it is a problem because dance is near the bodyfeeling and bodyawareness. This for me is a point of connection between naturism and dance. But is feeling the own body and see naked bodies in motion, to close to the sex for naturists?
Many naturists would´nt speak over her experiances with her nakedness, not with other naturists and not with her family or associates. Her childs learn, that they don´t may say over the naturism. So there no can learn that naturism it is a thing to be proud about. The parents are some day sad, when her cildren no want to stay in naturism.
I´m 67 years old and white and a man. I want tere are more tolerance in the clubs. It is not only a problem of the old age.
When young people become members and stay over a longer time, are often people they think like the old members. Only few other people come and stay in the club.
We must have more colores in the naturism.
In our opinion, if we (as naturists) keep restricting our nudity, it will never be considered normal. But those things take time. You mention dance, we don’t have much experience with that, but we do have experience with naked yoga. Which also involves naked people close to each other and positions that provide more “insight” than everyday actions.
At the beginning, this also felt a bit uncomfortable to us. But we strongly believe that these are things that we can and need to get used to. Somebody once told us about an unspoken rule that female naturists should never open their legs further than 45°. This is not what naturism is to us. This is all but freedom. It’s not because something feels awkward at first that it’s by default negative.
Thank for your comment.
I think too, that it must grow over long time, more time than I have. But we can say what we think over the direction.
The question is, how we can move in another direction.
How we can be more open with our naturism? How we can find a stress-free way with sexuality, without a high border? Is sex still a sin for us? Many people are naked in her bathroom. Is it to close to sex? It may be sometimes. Is it a problem?
What is our problem with sex? What is with homosexualitity, gender, exhibitionsts, sex education and all the other thems which us let not cold. It is still a problem in our whole world. We should speak above with another.
How we can the naturism make open to the diversity of people in our world?
What is, when we have a anknown women in our club and she open her legs over more than 45°? Is it danger for naturism? It may be, but there is no live without danger. Long live the naturism.
At first we must find a way to bring naturism in the middle of the open world. We all, everybody on her place. You are wonderful workers on this great creation. Thank you very match.
To more diverse by giving discounts to certain people is not the solution. You mentioned where you go most people are not white or rvs. What about the diversity there? Or are only focused on the areas that are mostly white. When Bangkok becomes more white we can be more diverse giving discounts to couples or females actually harms resorts because you are discriminate against people
You guys recommended a novel about a religious black couple who start questioning society’s standards and become naturists in this post; well, if you wanna get more young people into nudism, especially girls and women, I’d recommend you guys check out the anime that inspired me to research it, and get into nudism myself, titled Kill la Kill. The whole point of its story is to show viewers that society’s standard of mandatory full time clothing is a form of tyranny, and that we need to cast the shame that society makes us feel towards our natural bodies off, and our clothes along with it, if we’re to reclaim the freedom that is our right as human beings; and its protagonist is a girl named Ryūko Matoi, and one of her big development arcs in it is seeing through society’s lies, and overcoming the shame it’s made her to feel towards her natural body, which’s especially appropriate, since girls and women are typically made to feel even more shame towards their natural bodies, and made to cover up, even more than men are.
Thanks for the tip, we’ll look into that!